Iowa District Court
Jasper County, Iowa
State of Iowa v. Carl Eric Olsen
Case No. N-504
March 29, 1982
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THE COURT: Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Cook?
MR. COOK: Yes, Your Honor. We are reconvened for the purpose of presenting the testimony
of Mr. Thomas Francis Reilly. Mr. Reilly has come up from the Miami area to testify,
and we will at this time call him to the stand.
Mr. Reilly has requested that he be allowed to affirm the fact that he be allowed
to tell the truth because of his religious beliefs.
THOMAS FRANCIS REILLY,
Called as a witness on behalf of the defendant, being first duly sworn by the Court,
was examined and testified as follows.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COOK:
Q. Mr. Reilly, would you please state your full name and address and your occupation
for the Court?
A. Thomas Francis Reilly, R-e-i-l-l-y, Junior.
I live at 43 Star Island, Miami Beach,
Florida 33139. I'm a priest of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church.
Q. What is your age?
A. Thirty-eight. I was born June 20, 1943, in Boston,
Massachusettes.
Q. Mr. Reilly, the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church --
Is that the same church that Carl Olsen is a member of?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you know him?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long?
A. About five years now.
Q. And approximately how long has Mr. Olsen been a member
of this church?
A. About six years.
Q. Mr. Reilly, is the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church registered
as a corporate entity in the United States in any state?
A. In the state of Florida.
Q. Mr. Reilly, I'd like to hand you what's been marked
as Defendant's Exhibit 1 for identification, and ask you to identify that?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that purport to be a copy of an annual report
for the Florida Department of State?
A. Yes.
Q. And was this document something which you brought
from the corporate records of the Zion Coptic Church, Inc.?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it lists as an official of the church a Thomas
Reilly?
A. That's me.
Q. Is that also you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Approximately how long has the Zion Coptic Church
been a corporate structure within Florida?
A. I believe since 1975.
Q. Mr. Reilly, at some point in time was the Ethiopian
Zion Coptic Church or its American affiliate recognized by the Internal Revenue
Service as a non-profit charitable organization?
A. Yes, sir, at the same time.
MR. COOK: Would you mark this, please?
Q. Mr. Reilly, I hand you what has been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 2, and ask you if you can identify that document, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does that purport to be a facsimile copy of an application
with the Internal Revenue Services?
A. Yes, sir, it is.
Q. Was that filed on behalf of the Zion Coptic Church?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was that tax status granted by the Internal Revenue
Service?
A. Yes, sir, it was.
Q. Has it been revoked by the Internal Revenue Service?
A. If I may explain -- I don't know the exact word.
Papers were filed which were questioning our status with the Internal Revenue Service.
We haven't gone to court yet.
Q. A '75 suit was filed?
A. By the Internal Revenue Service.
Q. Where is that suit filed at?
A. The Miami Federal District Court.
Q. Mr. Reilly, the Zion Coptic Church, Inc., is that
some new church or something which you yourself are responsible for starting?
A. No, sir. That's an extension of the Ethiopian
Zion Coptic Church in America.
Q. What is the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church?
A. It is a church -- I'm not sure hor I should answer
that question. It's a church that myself and other members found in Jamaica
that has existed for several centuries among the black people, and I learned of
the church in Jamaica and have accepted the teachings and have lived within the
teachings since that time.
Q. Is the church recognized in Jamaica as a church?
A. The church has been incorporated by an act of the
Jamaican parliament.
MR. COOK: Would you please mark this?
(Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 is marked.)
Q. Mr. Reilly, I had you what's been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 3 for identification, and ask if you recognize that document, sir?
A. Yes, sir. That is a copy of what's referred
to as an acr of eleven of 1976 of the Jamaican parliament and for the incorporation
of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church. And it was enacted by the Queen's Most
Excellent Majesty, referring to the Queen of England.
Q. Is that recognition of status still valid within the
country of Jamaica?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. COOK: I'd move the admission of Exhibits
1, 2 and 3 for identification.
MR. NEIGHBOR: Are you seeking to admit
them into evidence at this time?
MR. COOK: Yes.
MR. NEIGHBOR: The State would object to
the admission of those documents into evidence based upon the fact that they are
hearsay and not the best evidence and no proper foundation has been laid to support
the authenticity of these documents and further the State believes that the documents
themselves are irrelevant to any matters before the Court. That is, whether
or not the defendant possessed a controlled substance with the intent to distribute
for profit.
THE COURT: Well, the objection is sustained,
but they're in for purpose of appeal in the event an appeal should be brought about
by either party. In short, it's a form of an Offer of Proof.
MR. COOK: Would the Court please specify
which of those grounds or both of those?
THE COURT: Relevancy.
MR. COOK: Thank you, sir.
Q. Mr. Reilly, did the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church start
with the Jamaican Parliamentary Act?
A. No, sir.
Q. I believe I heard you testify that it is centuries
old?
A. It is recorded in all history as having started in
Ethiopia many thousands of years ago, and it was carried to the western hemisphere
when the black people were brought from Africa to this hemisphere.
Q. Has there been one particular individual who is responsible
for this church or who's been most important to the church?
A. The one most recognized is Mr. Marcus Garvey, who
is a Jamaican, who preached in Jamaica and America.
Q. Mr. Reilly, approximately when, sir, was the Ethiopian
Zion Coptic Church brought to this country?
A. In 1971.
Q. Was that by you?
A. Yes, and others. Other members who had become
part of the church in Jamaica.
Q. And can you give me any idea, sir, of the number of
people who in the United States belong to the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church?
A. Yes. There's a list of some twenty-five thousand
members of the church -- people that subscribe to the church. There's a smaller
number of priests and those who are full-time committed to the church.
Q. What is Mr. Olsen's status within the church?
A. He's been a priest with the church for the last five
years or so.
Q. Is there a particular requirement or requirements
to becoming a priest in the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church?
A. Yes, sir. It requires an adherence to the commandments
and the teachings of the church and also an offer of your labor and time toward
the work of the church.
Q. Is the status of priesthood a full-time occupation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of the number of persons who belong to the church,
do you have any idea of how many people have attained the status of priesthood?
A. You're talking about America?
Q. Yes.
A. Fifty to sixty.
Q. Are you yourself a priest, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is there a hierarchy in the church? Are some
priests more important or more involved that others?
A. Only from the standpoint in the same way as your own
home your would expect the father to direct the children as opposed to the children
directing the father. We have church elders in Jamaica who are very much elders
both in age and length of time within the church, and we look to them as spiritual
fathers and for spiritual guidance. Among ourselves we consider ourselves
equal.
Q. Is the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church a part of any
larger religious movement, sir?
A. No.
Q. You consider yourselves a separate and distinct entity
similar to but different from the Catholic Church?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or any other commonly recognized church in America?
A. We profess a belief in the teachings of the Bible.
We believe in both the Old and New Testament which differentiates ourselves from
the Catholic or Jewish faith or what have you.
Q. What is the major tenet of the beliefs of the Ethiopian
Zion Coptic Church?
A. The major tenet is that God lives in the heart of
everyone, that we're created in the image and likeness of God, and that we have
a responsibility to live by His commandments. We have a responsbility not
to lie, not to steal, not to commit adultery because God made us to function better
when we do not do those things, and we are responsible for all that we do.
Q. When you say that the spirit of God is in you, are
you saying that you are the church?
A. The people is the congregatioon of the brothers and
sisters and families of the church. The church is a living concept wich also
is consistent with the teachings of the scripture which says: "Know you not
that you are them temple of the living God, not the building, but the man."
Q. Mr. Reilly, within the church, are you known as Brother
Love?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what is the sacrament of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic
Church?
A. It is a herb which is known as ganja and also known
as marijuana and also known as Indian Hemp.
Q. It there a basis for the use of marijuana?
A. Yes, many.
Q. Can you tell me which one specifically?
A. On the very first page of the Bible in the discussion
of creation, in Genesis 1:29 it says: "Behold, I have given you every herb
bearing seed which is upon the earth to you. It will be for meat." In
the book of Psalms, it says that God created the grass for the cattle and the herbs
for the service of man. In the book of First Corinthians, 11, we are shown
the supper of Our Lord involves a sharing of a spiritual sacrament of bread and
wine which we comprehend to be herbs. And in the book of Revelations it talks
about an angel passing a cup from a hand of man to a hand of another man and others
also. In Exodus there's a reference to a burning buch -- to Moses receiving
certain spiritual enlightenment from an encounter with a bush.
Q. You mentioned wine and bread. That is a sacrament
of most recognized churches in this country at this time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Does marijuana serve that same function to you?
A. Yes. I was brought up in the Roman Catholic
Church and the Roman Catholic Church refers to certain pages of scripture which
they claim explains why they symbolically give a piece of bread and wine.
We read the exact same Bible and the exact same scripture, and we know the history
and the interpretation of that to mean that God put it within all our our reach.
Q. Do you use marijuana for the same reason that a Catholic
partakes of bread and wine?
A. Yes, sir. It's a symbol of a relationship between
the creator, God, who creates us -- who also created the same herb, and we are able
to communicate with that creator by partaking of that herb.
Q. Do members of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church use
marijuana for any other reason?
A. It's used in our daily life as part of our spiritual
observance, and it is also used in other forms at specific times for medical purposes.
Q. But in terms of smoking marijuana, is it for any other
purpose other than religion?
A. No, sir.
Q. Brother Love, does the church have a specific doctrine
about an individual who gets high on marijuana?
A. The doctrine of the church is that man was created
to think clearly, to think conscientiously, and that the use of herbs is supposed
to enhance that. If a man using herbs starts acting somewhat tipsy, that would
mean there was a conflict in that man's spirit. That man had something that
was troubling him and the marijuana would emphasize that and be a signal that that
man should not be smoking 'till he works our his problem or whatever was bothering
him.
Q. How often, sir, would a priest of the Ethiopian Zion
Coptic Church smoke marijuana?
A. Continually. Our average day starts early in
the morning around four-thirty or five o'clock with a prayer service, and then we
all have our daily responsibilities, and we smoke right through the day, and we
gather in the late afternoon hours for a prayer service, and the again at night
we gather for an evening prayer service -- three times a day.
Q. Are there any particular days when a priest would
not smoke marijuana?
A. No, sir. We don't have any specific says within
the church that are set apart as specific or separate days. The sun comes
up the same every day, and we look upon every day as the same. We have our
prayer service every day every week of the year. If I might say something
-- In the same way that this courtroom is fully furnished -- in other words, everything
we need is here. That's the same experience that I had by going to Jamaica.
We came upon a church and we were shown something, and we could accept or reject
what was already there. So, the doctrine is not something that we can change
because it's thousands of years old.
Q. Mr. Reilly, as part of the doctrine of the church,
does a priest -- Do you as a priest of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church have any
worldly possessions of your own?
A. No, sir. We all accept what the scripture says
about apostles who live up to the example of Christ hold all things in common.
So, what we have is due to the grace of the church.
Q. If you were buying an automobile down the street,
would that be your automobile?
A. No, sir, it's the church's.
Q. Do any of the priests of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic
Church have personal possessions that they own?
A. If a man comes to the church and he lives in a house,
he still has his house. So from that standpoint -- or he still has his shirt
or his eye glasses, but as far as his worldly possessions -- or going out and trying
to start a bank account above and beyond the daily necessities, no.
Q. Who provides the daily necessities to a priest of
the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church?
A. The church itself.
Q. Who provides the marijuana that you smoke?
A. The church itself.
Q. Now, Mr. Reilly, would it be fair to characterize
the beliefs of the Zion Coptic Church as being very strict in their following of
the law of Moses?
A. Yes, sir. The law of Moses is very plain in
the commandments concerning what the scripture describes as clean and unclean.
There's a certain time of the month when a woman is in her separation, and during
that time a woman is separated from a man. Whenever a man and woman sleep
together for the purpose of having children, they are separated for the next day.
So, we adhere to them and are thankful for them. We do follow them.
Q. Do you typically characterize these has being very
conservatice by modern American standards?
A. Ultra.
Q. Is there a particular process that one must go through
to become a member of the church?
A. Yes, sir. It's a spiritual transformation or
a change in your heart. Your body doesn't change, but your heart changes,
and it's culminated after a learning of the doctrines of the church and the tenets
of the church and the learning of what sin in. At that point, once that learning
process is complete, an individual will confess and start living a new life -- be
born again and start living after the teaching of the scripture and not after the
former life a person would have known. We still eat and drink and breathe
and all those things, but we stop the adultery or taking drugs or whatever things
people would have done before that.
Q. Now, Brother Love, are you personally aware as to
whether or not Mr. Olsen has made a confession to become a member of this church?
A. Yes, he has.
Q. Was is done in your presence?
A. No, sir.
Q. Are you personally aware as to whether Mr. Olsen is
a priest of this church?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you describe the activities and works of a member
of the church as a way of living?
A. It is. From the time I became part of the church,
I have had no interest outside of the church. When I wake up in the morning
I attend prayer service and then every day my entire day if fulfilled with the affairs
of the church, not every brother is the same. I will spend more time talking
to lawyers if need be for court cases, whereas other brothers will spend time out
on the farm.
Q. Has Mr. Olsen adhered to that doctrine?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Olsen has lived where I've been
living for several years, and I've observed him face to face. We've lived
together for many years.
Q. Brother Love, are you familiar or do you know anything
about an arrest that took place in Jasper County, Iowa, in the early morning hours
of January 19, 1978, involving Mr. Olsen?
A. Only what I've learned from talking to you and Mr.
Olsen.
Q. You are aware that he was arrested at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any personal knowledge of the facts of
that arrest?
A. No, only what I've read since I've been here.
Q. And do you have any personal knowledge, sir -- excuse
me -- strike that. Mr. Olsen has testified that the fourteen ounces that was
in his possession at the time he was arrested would have been used by him in three
or four days personally --
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that an ordinary amount?
A. That's about average for a priest of the church.
I might say a little bit more for myself because where I live there are more brothers
and sisters around. We not only smoke the herb -- we have other uses for it
-- tonics and making teas.
Q. If an individual or a priest of the church violated
the precepts that you have told us about, what steps would be taken against that
individual?
A. Depending on the seriousness, the very first step
--- If there is what we call a brother has a judgment against him for doing something
wrong or saying something wrong -- the very first thing would be to remove that
brother from the privilege of have the sacrament. If it were more serious,
the most serious would be actually having to cut off his hair and beard. But
the first step, if there's a question about a brother's integrity of a brother's
sincerity of the church, the first step is to remove the brother from communion.
Q. Would it be a violation of the church precepts for
a priest to sell marijuana?
A. Yes, sir. The sacrament is not to sell.
Q. You've been involved in numerous other court proceedings
as a representative of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church; have you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who are they?
A. From the time that we got our first church papers
in the United States from the Internal Revenue Service in 1975, and then the Internal
Revenue Service challenged that status in 1978. During a hearing of the Internal
Revenue Service, the Department of Justice entered into a stipulation saying that
they recognized that the church was a church formed for the purpose of spreading
the beliefs of the Bible and the moral precepts of the church. Secondly, that
the church members met at different places according to the dictates of the church
tenets. And third, that the government did not dispute that the Zion Coptic
Church members used marijuana as our sacrament in religious services. And
a civil case that started up in late 1978 and into 1979 in Miami, a Court Judge
ruled that the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church represents a religion within the first
amendment to the United States Constitution. Secondly, that the members are
sincere, and third, that marijuana is essential to the practice of the religion.
All of those findings were upheld by the Florida Supreme Court.
We have other cases where the government has
conceded where the issue has not been the smoking and the govenment has conceded
we know they smoke within their sacrament, and we're not disputing that. The
issue has come up, and we have been found to be a church and to be sincere and that
marijuana is an essential integral part of the church.
MR. COOK: Thank you. That concludes
the Direct Examination.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. NEIGHBOR:
Q. Mr. Reilly, have you ever been convicted of a felony?
A. No, sir.
Q. Now, as I understand your testimony, it's one of the
duties of an individual who who call a priest in your church to distribute marijuana
to other people; is that correct?
MR. COOK: I don't recall any testimony
like that whatsoever by this witness.
THE COURT: If the witness understands the
question, he can answer it and use his own recollection.
A. I don't recall saying anything like that.
Q. Does a priest share marijuana that he or she may have
in their possession with others?
A. May I answer that with an explanation as opposed to
a yes or no? A priest will share with other priests. There are no women
priests, but a brother may share the marijuana.
Q. And with other individuals who are known priests?
A. Yes -- within the church.
Q. I understand that. So, your answer to that question
would be yes, a person who you claim to be a priest in your church could possess
marijuana with intent to deliver to other people?
MR. COOK: I object. That's a mischaracterization
of the witness's answer.
THE COURT: He may answer if he understands
the question.
A. Only within this church -- within the sharing of the
church doctrine and the sharing of the church sacrament.
Q. So, your answer is yes, but only within the church?
A. My answer is what I said it was. My answer is
not yes because the question implies generalities, distribution outside the church,
that is not true.
Q. You qualified that a priest will possess marijuana
with intent to deliver, but only to people within the confines of your so-called
religion?
A. I wouldn't even use the word deliver.
Q. Transfer, give to?
A. Share -- because it is the common property of the
church. When I have marijuana it is not what I call my marijuana. I
couldn't take it and go off someplace and do something to it without the knowledge
of another person in the church. It is my responsibility as a custodian of
it for the church. If, for example, the elders of the church felt that I was
doing something wrong, I would be told to leave the marijuana alone. Let the
marijuana be handled by other priests of the church. So, it's not mine.
It's the church's from beginning to end.
Q. Does this church of yours cultivate marijuana for
the purpose of internal use?
A. Yes.
Q. I understand that the Zion Church is involved in some
litigation in the state of Maine involving the importation and seizure of twenty
to thirty tons of marijuana into the United States; is that correct?
MR. COOK: We will stipulate to the fact
that there are charges pending against certain individuals. The church has
not been charged. There are charges pending against certain individuals in
the state of Maine.
THE COURT: Same ruling as before.
The objection is sustained, but you may make your record as an Offer of Proof.
Q. Is the church involved? Was the church involved
in the importation of that large quantity of marijuana that I just referred to in
the state of Maine?
A. Your Honor, I respectfully decline to answer that
question under the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me. I'm
charged with that type of activity in a Florida indictment, and I will call upon
the fifth amendment.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. I wasn't asking you about you, specifically.
I was asking about the church.
MR. COOK: Your Honor, the charge against
Mr. Reilly in Miami Federal Court is continuing criminal enterprise; and therefore,
the question would be improper. We would raise the same objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. From comments of your counsel and your refusal to
answer these questions, I take it that the federal government is in the process
of prosecuting you and other members of your so-called religion as being engaged
in a continuing criminal enterprise; that is, the importation and distribution of
marijuana?
MR. COOK: We have answered that question.
There's a stipulation to the effect that the charge is pending.
THE COURT: I understand the answer to have
been yes previously.
MR. REILLY: If I might say, we're not part
of a so-called church. We're a part of a church.
Q. The testimony that you have given indicates that people
who work for this organization are called priests; is that correct?
A. There are members of the church who have attained
the status of priesthood. There are other people who have not applied themselves
to that degree.
Q. Is Mr. Olsen employed by the church?
A. Mr. Olsen is a priest of the church and has been,
as I said before, for many years. When I say employed by the church, that's
principally in the Jamaica -- The church has many large agricultural properties.
Q. Mr. Olsen testified in his own defense that one of
the things that he received is expenses for being a priest is things like housing,
gasoline for his automobile, and clothing and things like that; is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many priests in your church own Eldorado Cadillacs?
A. There are several Cadillacs. I don't know how
many are Eldorados.
Q. And are title to those automobiles in the name of
the individual or in the name of the church?
A. We've done it different ways at different times.
Some are titled as individuals and some are titled in the church. An individual
may come in with a vehicle already in his name, and we wouldn't change it.
Q. Doesn't it seem unusual that a person will go out
and buy an automobile when they are a priest and not title it in the church?
A. No, sir.
Q. What kind of car do you drive?
A. A Mercedes-Benz.
MR. NEIGHBOR: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. COOK:
Q. Is there a federal tax lien against the Zion Coptic
Church?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In approximately what amount?
A. 3.2 million dollars.
Q. Does that have anything to do with why a car might
not be titled in the name of the church?
A. Of course.
MR. COOK: Your Honor, may we have just
a few moments to make sure that I've covered all of the points? May we have
a short recess?
THE COURT: Certainly.
(A brief recess was held.)
Q. (Mr. Cook) Mr. Reilly, you've testified that
the members of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church smoke marijuana as their sacrament.
What is the purpose of the smoking of marijuana, sir? What does it do?
A. The purpose of the smoking of marijuana is to enable
the person who smokes to look deeper inside his own spirit, to look deeper inside
his own conscience and to come to a realization of the difference of what is right
and what is wrong. It serves as the equivalent of planting a seed. The
more it grows, the more you partake of the spirit that is in the herb itself.
The difference to me individually when I look upon my person with the Catholic Church
as opposed to the Zion Coptic Church is within the Catholic Church, you're given
a symbolic communion. In the Zion Coptic Church you're given a symbolic living
communion and puts my person more in harmony with the creator of that herb.
In other words, it works. It affects the heart and the moral conscience of
the partaker.
Q. And finally, Mr. Reilly, could a Coptic practice his
religion without the use of marijuana?
A. No, sir. You'd be cutting off his spiritual
life.
MR. COOK: That's all I have.
MR. NEIGHBOR: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down.
Gentlemen, then the evidence is closed?
MR. COOK: That's correct.
MR. NEIGHBOR: The State has no rebuttal.
THE COURT: Very good. Thank you,
gentlemen.
(Record closed.)